God: The Revered Tyrant

I had a healthy debate with two of my Christian friends over a note one of them posted on facebook. I thought it would be nice to share the topics we covered. It might be slightly wordy but I still hope all of you can take time and ponder upon the discussion.

The original note posted was:

It saddens me so immensely to see people fleeing from Christ not because they don’t have enough “scientific evidence” or because the concept of religion upsets them… but because self-proclaimed Christians act like the complete opposite of Christ— partaking in cults and various “God hates [fill in the blank]” movements… instead of speaking into people’s lives about the message of God’s LOVE. Jesus spent His life from beginning to end showing the world how much God loved them and what they had to do to be closer to God, and how to glorify Him. If only more people knew that Christianity has everything to do with love, and nothing to do with brainwashing and hate.

“Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed His love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us” – 1 John 4:7-12.

Source: http://kellylove.tumblr.com/post/97737347/jesus-is-love

Below are some of the main points of our argument. I’ll try my best to organise them so that it all makes sense and please note that my responses are in RED.

What is Christ?

We don’t decide what is Christ, the Bible tells us that Jesus loves us and that we should love others in the same way. We are to hate the sin, not the sinner.  

Alot of pple also don’t understand why Christians are always out there inviting others to church trying to get others to convertk. they go, “why can’t Christians just live & let live without having to convert anyone? how does it benefit them? can’t they be like <insert other religion> who is pretty much peace-loving and don’t force their beliefs upon others. I wld say think of it this way – in a way we as Christians don’t really get to benefit anything in the physical sense when someone else converts. but think of it as chancing upon this miraculous fountain of youth – the water is sparkling clean and once you drink it, it just completely refreshes & rejuvenates you.

Wouldn’t you want to share this piece of good news & joy with your loved ones and friends, or even, the whole world? good news aren’t meant to be kept inside, overflowing joy bubbling over causes one to want to share it with others. that’s why. (although i do conceed that the way some Christians go about too forcefully may result in a backlash, and this is what alot of non/pre-believers are unhappy about)

1) People ‘flee’ from Christ not because there are not enough scientific evidence, but because scientific evidences prove that the exist of God is almost impossible

2) If there is a God, he definitely does not love people.

3) Yes people are put off by Christian movements, most of the movements are inspired by words in the Bible. Yet, this is not the main reason. The main reason is because rational people know that there is no God, at least not the one that religion portrays.

4) The Bible is full of contradictions, false miracles and the tyranny of God. Deuteronomy 22:13-21-God demands we kill brides who are not virgins.
Most Christians here are peace loving I agree, can’t speak for the fundamentalists though. The fact is religion is false and dangerous, without even converting anyone.

5) While you think it is “good news” and refreshes you, rational people thinks that it deludes and divide.

Can you explain the following: If there is a God, he definitely does not love people? And why you think ‘religion is false & dangerous’, and that it ‘deludes & divides’? Also, how do rational people know that there is no God? what kind of God do they think he is (assuming there is one) if he is not the one religion portrays ?

He does not love people because I cannot bring myself to believe that while he cares about some poeple, the children of Africa are starving and dying from all kinds of diseases. Not to mention the Pope then goes there to sell the ridiculous idea that condoms helps the spread of aids. I cannot believe that God cares about the millions of Jews of gypsies who died under Hitler, half the population of Cambodia was wiped out under Pol Pot. Elisabeth Fritzl who was trapped by her own father and raped throughout a 24yr ordeal. Imagine the number of prayers she must have said. In the Bible, God destroyed everything and everyone in a flood, including innocent children.

He also demands that we kill all brides who are not virgins, all teenagers who are disobedient. He tested Abraham’s obedience by asking him to kill his own Son. If God appeared in front of me and ask me to kill a stranger, I would not do it. Coincidentally, obedience is the same excuse used by Nazi war criminals during the Nuremburg trials. And also the trial of Duch now in Cambodia.

Reigion is false, therefore it deludes. It’s a great and romantic idea to believe that created us and then died for us. According to the Bible, the world was created 6000 years ago in 6 days, totally impossible. The Earth was flat. Noah miraculously managed to cage all animals on Earth. I wonder who got the shit job of scouring the planet for the 15000 species of butterfy or the 8800 species of ant they eventually took on board Noah’s Ark. Evolution taught us that all animals, including Man are not made, just evolved. And many more. To believe that any Religion is true is thus delusional.

Religion is dangerous and divides because it gives people the wrong information. It teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the World because the Bible can tell us everything we know. It affects the people of Africa when they think that condoms are useless. Imagine if all scientists today stop working and researching and credit everything to God. Religion divides because most of the time, your religion is based on your family or country you were born in. You are then taught to believe that your religion is the correct one and therefore others are false. Think about it if you were born in Iraq, you would have a different God.

IF there is a God, he is certainly beyond our imagination, and he certainly would not care about us. The idea of a God is so absurd, ridiculous and far-fetched that if there is one, we wouldn’t know. It says alot when many religion today preaches a God that has human like qualities. It not because God created man in his image. It is because on the first day, Man created God.

The issue on suffering which you have brought up is a long withstanding argument, just like many other arguments made by atheists. I can only attempt to answer it with our understanding of suffering.

There is suffering because we live in a fallen world, which is the consequence of sin; not necessarily the sin of the individual who suffers, but sin in the history of Man. 

God gave us free will, we were not created as robots that automatically love Him and are perfect. With this free will, we can make the choice of doing good or evil. Yes, God allows us to make mistakes. Not so that we will suffer the consequences and He can then say “told you so” but so that we can learn from our mistakes and grow stronger from where we fell. God did not create people like Fritzl and Hitler as evil people. People make their own choices.

What you brought up about the Holocaust is exactly what I was trying to bring up in posting this note. It is not religion itself that deludes or divides, it is the people who misuse faith and attribute their acts wrongly in the name of religion. Very often it is not religion itself that destroys, but really people behind these religions who claim to be doing what their gods told them to do.

Why do you say that it was impossible to create the world in 6 days? Is it humanely impossible? Or supernaturally impossible? I do not have factual answers about Noah’s ark, because I have not done any in-depth studies on it. But you should read this if you’re interested: http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Noahs-Ark-A-Feasibility-Study,4605,226.aspx Many species of animals which we see today were not in existence back in those days. Noah only needed to bring the ‘parent kinds’ of each species to repopulate the earth.

I accept your argument that God did not created evil people. But my argument was that God does not love us. If you refer back to what I said, people can become evil and do evil things. But if God loves us, then at least spare us from those evil people. Even if he can’t, at leaststop the Pope from making ridiculous speaches in Africa. If he can’t, he could at least feed the poor children in Africa. That is the least he could do. Religion tells us that God loves us and if you believe and pray, your prayers will be answered. We all know that no matter what we pray for and who we pray to, the rate of sucess is 50-50. And if your prayers for good grades get answered while the prayers of poor Africans are not, what does it say about God?

Religion does not destroy? If everyone follows the Bible today, everyone will be stoning each other to death. You do not seem to have an explanation to why God demands absolute obedience. And gets jealous when we work on a wrong day, pray to a wrong God, or simply do not believe.

Well if you believe that the world was created in 6 days 6000 years ago, that just shows how religion can be delusional. We have found fossils dated millions of years back. We know that the world today, and human beings took millions of years to evolve, and wasn’t just created.

I’ve been to that site before and it’s quite funny that they tell you how dinosaurs are fitted into the Ark. I understand that the population of animals today is different back then, but the World was already extremely diversified during that time. Could Noah have gone all the way to down under to take a few Kangaroos and Koala Bears. And how did get all of the to mate?

All you need are 2 animals who do not find each other attractive and the experiment will fail. Also, you do not seem to have an answer why God had to kill everyone? Including babies and children? Surely they are too young to even know.

Talking about “free will”, the definition of free will is 1)The ability or discretion to choose; free choice or/and 2) Philosophy the belief that human behaviour is an expression of personal choice and is not determined by physical forces, Fate, or God. What kind of a free will do we get, when we are taught that we are born sinners. And that we will go to Hell just by not believing in God. It seems that God is say,” Look, I gave you free will, do anything you want, good or evil. Just make sure you believe in me, if not hell awaits you.” To me, this is the greatest insult to free will.

God could probably have made us all mindless, programmed robots, but he didn’t. why? cos he is not a dictator but a loving God. iif and when one day we come around and decide that we want to believe & we want to love him, the love we have is then REAL and the joy both God and us derive frm this will be a gazillion, billion times better & more real & precious then if we love only cos we were programmed to do so. 
We choose our own beliefs, and our own thoughts, and all this will ultimately lead to what we want to do with our life. God doesn’t predestine any of our lives – He only knows the future & what we’re gonna do before we do it.

About the different religions in different countries, i conceed that if we were in another country, i probably might not come to know of Christianity as i do now. but Christian missionaries are always on the go to all parts of the world to spread the Word, hence the chances for someone in a non-Christian country to hear of Christianity & accept is always there. even in the most tribal and rural of lands, missionaries have trekked there to spread the Gospel, and results hav always been astounding.

As for Noah’s ark – according to the Bible, no one actually needed to go scour for all the animals. the animals actually came to Noah – i mean, c’mon, if God tasked Noah with this mammoth task, wldn’t God use abit of his supernatural power to help Noah out.

you see, the thing abt God is that – if we can understand him with our limited human knowledge, then he is not God afterall. it is like how ants can never understand what it is like to b human -cos they’re in a 2D world whereas we are in a 3D world. One question, Eric – you think that religion is dangerous and deludes, but to many it is actually a source of hope among other things. what then do you think is one’s meaning in life without religion? what are we on Earth for? that one day we die and disppear into dust? I wld lik to clarify here that you’re speaking against all religions? or just Christianity? cos many wld wanna say that Christianity is not a religion per se but a relationship with God.

I’m against all religion=) Just so happen that I used to be a Christian and you are a Christian. Haha.

1) My parents will not kill me if I do not respect them. I think that respect is earned, not automatic. For you, your respect for God is automatic because you have been brought up to believe that he is real.

2)Has it ever occur to you that missionaries go to places where in general people are uneducated and living conditions are bad? And most importantly of all, none of them has any strong blind faith to start with. Why is it that missionaries seldom go to Iraq, Afganistan, Iran? If your God is true and powerful, surely you can convert them as well. Yet, it is fact that religion targets 3 main groups, the young/uneducated, weak, and the desperate.

3) If God is so powerful, why did he have to create a flood and ask Noah to build an Ark in the first place? Why not just laser everything he wants dead? And my question about why he had to kill innocent children is still unanswered.

4) That is the main reason why people created God in the first place. Because people have no scientific knowledge of anything during our primitive days. As we progress, the things that we need to use God to explain becomes lesser and lesser. And God has become to God of gaps, hiding in any gaps of Science. It used to be the church thinks that the World is flat. After that is proven false, now the church thinks that evolution is false. God is desperately seeking new hideouts, and the hideouts are running out.

5) Morphine is a source of hope for people in pain. Yes it relieves pain. Does it mean that we shld administer morphine to everyone in pain? No. Are you happier when you are drunk? Yes. Should you get drunk everytime you are unhappy. No.

6) Contrary to popular beliefs, atheists do not lead a meaningless life. We treasure every minute and second, not wasting a single moment, because we know that we only have one chance at life. Unlike religious folks, we have no heaven, no hell, no devils, no angels and no eternity, just one shot at life. You don’t need God to make you a better man, you need yourself. I live for the people I love, for the world which I think is beautiful. And I hope that I can make people around me realise that the world can be beautiful, without heaven and hell. And when I finally die and return to Earth, just before that very moment, I can say I contributed to the species of man. I hope that you are not just living just for the sake that you can go to heaven one day.

7) To me, most religions preaches relationships with God, doing whatever he deem to be ‘right’. Christianity is no different.

1) Our respect for God is not automatic. Simply accepting everything we have been told as toddlers would be blind faith, but actively seeking the truth isn’t blind faith. 🙂

2) Actually missionaries do go to the places you have mentioned, and are killed every day by non-believers for proclaiming their faith. The whole world is our mission field, not only places plagued with poverty and sickness. God didn’t tell us to convert people who are poor/sick/uneducated, but to spread the Gospel until EVERYONE has heard. 

3) Your example of Noah and the Ark has answered your question. God gave people the choice to follow Him, or to be drowned. Noah and his family followed Him, and survived. If He didn’t want to give them a choice, He could have done what you suggested: laser everything.

Of cos God did not specifically tell you who to convert. What I’m trying to say is most people who are sucessfully converted are either uneducated/young, sick or the desperate.

You didn’t answer my questions actually. Why did God only give Noah the choice? Noah is a person, not everyone. Why did God not give innocent children any chances? Why did God demand so many people killed? Why did God demand the death of homosexuals and virgin brides and disobedient teenagers? Why did God not answer the prayers of Africans and those who lived under tyrants? Why did God fail to heal amputees (assuming he can heal cancer, blindness etc) Why must God send good people who do not believe in him to hell? Isn’t it very unfair to people born in the ‘wrong’ places or family?

Once again, I would like to apologise for this massive wordcount. Some of the arguments have already been covered while others are new. I feel this is important as it summarises the main and core differences of Christianity as well as Atheist pretty nicely and I’ll elaborate on some of them in due time.

I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life of individuals, or of a personal God. So far as religion is concerned, it is a damned fake … Religion is all bunk. – Thomas Edison